Diversability Amplified Podcast: What Does the Diversability Leadership Collective Mean to You? with Neil Hughes [S2:E14]
A gradient blue background with airwaves takes up the top half. Dark blue text "Diversability Season 2". To the left is a cutout photo of Neil. Centered is a blue box with text "New Episode". On the bottom half is a light blue background with audio control mockup. Centered text "S2:E14 What Does the Diversability Leadership Collective Mean to You? with Neil Hughes"
In today’s episode, host Erin Tatum is joined by activist, athlete, and podcaster Neil Hughes. They discuss what being in the Diversability Leadership Collective has taught him over the years and how he feels grounded and proud of his disabled identity because of it. Such support is invaluable for building the next generation and the future of the disability movement. This episode is for anyone who feels isolated in their disability experience.
Show Notes
DLC Discussion for Diversability Podcast
Empowerment Through Disability Solidarity
Autism Advocacy and Workplace Inclusion
Empowering Disability Leadership Through Safe Spaces
Challenges in Disability Benefits Transition
Challenging Disability Narratives and Accommodations
Disability Rights and Representation Challenges
Transition to Post-Capitalist World
Beyond Traditional DEI Approaches
Summary
The meeting began with casual conversation before transitioning into a discussion about the Disability Community Leadership (DLC) with Neil Hughes as part of a podcast recording for Diversability Amplifying. Neil shared his personal experiences with the DLC, including his journey of transitioning off SSDI and the importance of having a safe space for disabled individuals to practice leadership and develop their voices. The conversation explored various challenges faced by disabled individuals, including systemic issues with disability benefits, workplace discrimination, and the need for better representation in disability rights within DEI initiatives, while also discussing the potential shift from a capitalist to a post-capitalist world and the importance of storytelling and community engagement.
Detailed Recap
DLC Discussion for Diversability Podcast
The meeting began with casual conversation about weekend activities and Neil's work situation, where he revealed he works 12-14 hours daily to transition off SSDI and received positive news about potential funding, including a picture of a tour bus from his boss. Erin then introduced the purpose of the meeting, which was to discuss the DLC (Disability Community Leadership) with Neil Hughes as part of a podcast recording for Diversability Amplifying. The conversation was set to explore what the DLC means to Neil, with plans to preserve cultural knowledge.
Empowerment Through Disability Solidarity
Neil shared his personal journey with the DLC, highlighting how it provided him a sense of belonging and support after facing isolation and discrimination due to his disabilities. He described the DLC's pan-disability approach as promoting unity among disabled individuals, emphasizing the need for a collective fight for equality. Neil also discussed his experience with an EEOC complaint, which highlighted the lack of protection for disabled individuals in the workplace, and how the DLC helped him find resources and support to navigate the legal process.
Autism Advocacy and Workplace Inclusion
Neil shared his personal story about his experience with the city of Charlottesville regarding his autism diagnosis, emphasizing the importance of disclosing disabilities in the workplace and the need for inclusive environments. He highlighted how his involvement with the DLC helped him develop professional skills and build a platform, such as the NeuroDope podcast, to share his experiences and knowledge with others. Neil expressed his hope that his narrative would inspire others to make better decisions and create more inclusive spaces.
Empowering Disability Leadership Through Safe Spaces
Neil and Erin discussed the importance of the Disability Leadership Collective (DLC) as a safe space for disabled individuals to practice leadership and express their emotions without fear of judgment. Neil shared his personal experiences of using the DLC to develop his voice and leadership skills, while Erin emphasized the need to protect oneself from ableist environments and networks that shame or guilt individuals for their accommodations and needs. They also highlighted the loss of grassroots organizations focused on employment and social security for disabled people, and the importance of adapting to current challenges while remembering and learning from past experiences.
Challenges in Disability Benefits Transition
Neil and Erin discussed the challenges faced by individuals with disabilities, particularly regarding Social Security benefits and employment. Neil explained the complex process of transitioning off disability benefits, highlighting the bureaucratic hurdles and financial constraints involved. They also touched on the systemic issues and misconceptions surrounding disability benefits, including the impact of medical and financial reviews, and the struggle to maintain health insurance while trying to work. Neil shared personal experiences of being misunderstood and unfairly treated, emphasizing the need for better understanding and support for people with disabilities.
Challenging Disability Narratives and Accommodations
Neil and Erin discussed the challenges faced by individuals with disabilities, particularly regarding parking spots and societal perceptions. Neil shared his experiences as a veteran with multiple definitions of disability, highlighting the administrative and cultural devaluation of differences. They agreed on the importance of changing the narrative around disability and the need for accommodations, emphasizing the psychological toll of constantly defending basic human needs.
Disability Rights and Representation Challenges
Neil and Erin discussed the challenges faced by disabled individuals, highlighting systemic issues and the lack of representation in disability rights within DEI initiatives. Neil shared personal experiences of being publicly shamed and the assumption that disabled people are freeloaders, emphasizing that disability is a significant barrier to a normal existence. They agreed on the importance of visibility and representation through projects like the Disability Visibility Project and Sins Invalid, and Erin noted the power of resistance in the current climate. Sam shared a personal experience with HR, emphasizing that HR is often more focused on protecting the company than the employee, reinforcing the idea that corporate America is not designed for disabled individuals.
Transition to Post-Capitalist World
Neil and Sam discussed the transition from a capitalist to a post-capitalist world, highlighting the current market disruptions and the privatization of assets by billionaires. Neil emphasized the importance of understanding this shift and its implications for retirement accounts and public services. Erin and Neil also talked about the power of storytelling and the potential of social media to create positive change, with Neil sharing his experience of leaving disability-focused work to pursue a career in social media management. They discussed the need for a more engaged and active disability community, with Neil expressing a desire to build a community of individuals genuinely committed to improving their lives and the world around them.
Beyond Traditional DEI Approaches
The group discussed the need to move beyond traditional DEI (Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion) approaches, which Sam suggested have become politically charged and exclusionary. Neil shared insights from Lean Manufacturing at Toyota, where power structures were flipped to empower workers, and explained how similar principles could benefit disabled people and society as a whole. The discussion concluded with agreement that focusing on basic needs and economic empowerment rather than political solutions would lead to better outcomes for disabled individuals and the broader community.
Tune in to the entire podcast on the Diversability YouTube channel. Season 2 Episode 14 is available here.
YouTube: https://youtu.be/RIcBDVGSBus
Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/episode/21JaAqj60Y9IW6jDvhX9VM?si=Rk-gZB5kT_GNTk3RUjVUNA
Transcript
20:03:14 Hi, you, Neil.
20:03:20 Yeah, that's fair.
20:03:16 I don't have a weekend, I'm disabled. I really don't. I don't understand weekends, holidays. If I had a paycheck, I would start.
20:03:27 It's celebrating, and it wouldn't be weekends.
20:03:31 True.
20:03:33 But yeah, I work… I work about 12 to 14 hours a day to get off of SSDI.
20:03:37 And I think it finally paid off. I got a text yesterday where.
20:03:41 I got some good news from my boss, so… He sent me a picture of a tour bus.
20:03:45 Ooh, elaborate!
20:03:50 And said, this is coming your way, and I'm like, I don't think I want a tour bus, but I do want a paycheck.
20:03:57 Yeah.
20:03:56 They're very… I've talked to Sam this week. Sam and I are gonna meet every week. I'm gonna help him do the same thing.
20:04:03 Thank you, yeah, I appreciate that, I'm excited.
20:04:05 Yeah, and Aaron, I think you're next.
20:04:09 Yeah, that would, that would be incredible.
20:04:13 Yeah, and…
20:04:17 I dig it. I'm there. I'm ready.
20:04:13 Well, a tour bus for everyone, like Oprah, and you get a tour bus, and you…
20:04:20 Hey, I would never say no to a tour bus.
20:04:25 But I wish I was joking, but that's literally what he sent me. He's like.
20:04:29 You're at the front of the queue, so I'm first in line for funding, and he's like.
20:04:33 And this is coming, and he had a… it's a listing for a blacked out.
20:04:37 Like, a rock star tour bus. It was so funny.
20:04:42 I mean, that's exciting, that means good things coming your way.
20:04:46 Well, that's because of the DLC. This is why I wanted to do the open mic, because I'm so happy with the DLC.
20:04:53 Yeah, and then in that. What spirit should I… Um, should I do introductions?
20:05:01 Sure.
20:05:04 To those of you watching the recording. for joining us today, this.
20:05:09 will also be repurposed. a podcast recording as an episode of.
20:05:13 diverse ability amplifying. Alright, so welcome to our open.
20:05:21 Discussing with DLC community member Neil Hughes. About what the DLC means.
20:05:28 To him with the intent of. preserving cultural knowledge. My name is Erin Dietam.
20:05:34 after she and her, I'm. White woman with messy brunette.
20:05:40 And glasses, and a navy. blue shirt, and I'm excited.
20:05:47 Here today, Neil and Sam. What are you both chewing?
20:05:55 I'm doing good. I was letting Sam go first, but I'll say I'm good. I'm doing great.
20:06:00 I was gonna say, Neil, I was letting you go, this is your show, I feel like. But I'm doing pretty well.
20:06:09 Perfect! Well, Neil, where… Would you like us to start in terms of tracing your journey?
20:06:16 Do you want to give some general back? background on your life, or where you.
20:06:21 I wish you were out when you joined the DLC?
20:06:23 Sure, so… I was, uh… Uh… the general background for me is… A long story, a lot of trauma, a lot of disability.
20:06:37 And so, when I met the DLC, it was because of a… National Institute… national… Council on Independent Living, NCIL, so NICL.
20:06:49 They had a… Podcast… that wasn't a podcast, it was a presentation.
20:06:54 And what they were talking about was. how to survive an EEOC complaint. So I'd filed a complaint.
20:07:01 I didn't know what I was doing, and I needed support.
20:07:05 And I was already on the subcommittee for Social Security and Employment.
20:07:12 Nichols, so I was doing monthly meetings, and I was.
20:07:15 trying to create legislation that would help people like me.
20:07:18 get back to work in meaningful ways. So I'm in Vocab Rehab.
20:07:23 I've been disabled. I'm 20 years into this process after being paralyzed on a roof and then.
20:07:29 My surgeon cut the spinal cord to my right leg.
20:07:33 and then I had a car accident that broke my neck, but on top of that, I'm autistic and I have an autism diagnosis.
20:07:40 I have childhood trauma, so there's all these different things.
20:07:45 Affecting me… And I'm trying to get support, and… Marie was on there, so Marie's not here today, but… She was on there saying, oh, if you need support, you're not going to get it here or here or here, but you can get it at the DLC, and she was absolutely correct.
20:08:04 That's the quick version of that.
20:08:08 So, so would you say that. really gave you a sense of belonging in your.
20:08:15 disability identity that you hadn't had previously?
20:08:19 Yeah, so a sense of belonging for… yes, that's… The second event I was on was a… Off the record with Nico.
20:08:27 And he… I was bawling. I was absolutely having a breakdown on camera.
20:08:32 because of the pressure I was under, because I was so alone in my fight just for my basic human rights that my employers.
20:08:41 And they had abused me so terribly, and I had no one that understood an EEOC complaint.
20:08:48 And then, Nika's like, I don't understand it. But I understand what you're doing, and it's the same work that Nico does every day, and it's the same thing that Tiffany Yu is doing every day.
20:08:59 And it's this pan disability effort. It doesn't matter what you're struggling with, if you're disabled, we're with you.
20:09:06 And I didn't feel that until I joined the DLC.
20:09:13 speaks to about, um, sort of, sort of the deep chilling effect.
20:09:18 The isolation can have on the. disabled experience, because even.
20:09:24 one of the largest marginalized communities in the U.S.
20:09:29 There's still paradoxically such a. feeling of loneliness, and then I.
20:09:33 an idea that, well, my needs. Must not be worth it, because they look different from.
20:09:38 everyone else's needs.
20:09:40 Right, exactly. So I like the pan disability. approach that diversibility is taking.
20:09:53 But still, it… it promotes. a unity that often.
20:09:57 Oftentimes, again, with. you don't see, because.
20:10:01 We're often encouraged so much. to focus on our own struggles, but then.
20:10:07 we are able to get in these community spaces, we can really understand.
20:10:11 how much we all have in common in terms of the fight for equality in the movement.
20:10:16 Right. Yeah, so if you want to demoralize a person, and they're.
20:10:22 Their ability to survive, what you do is you take the children away from them.
20:10:27 Or you tell them to stop using language that they use culturally.
20:10:31 And this is what happened with the… Indian schools and taking the children away and absolutely preventing them from speaking their.
20:10:40 Language, whatever that native language was that those kids were using.
20:10:45 And when we talk about social justice versus. disability rights versus… Disability justice, there's this long history and.
20:10:55 Nico is very good at giving us… if you ever watch his events, he's very good at giving us the history of disability and how we got here.
20:11:02 And that we're literally 50 to 60 to 100 years behind the Civil Rights Movement.
20:11:07 The women's rights movement, right? The disability rights and disability justice.
20:11:13 however you want to frame it. It's lagging way behind on all of these things that.
20:11:20 We take for granted because of the ADA, like, oh, we have the ADA. No, we have… an attempt at equality.
20:11:28 injustice, but it's not… What happened to me with my EEOC complaint is a great example.
20:11:34 It just didn't work. There's… there's no system to protect me.
20:11:38 It says that it'll protect me on the books, but it really doesn't protect me. That's what I learned after 3 years of.
20:11:44 filing a complaint that my employer turned into a lawsuit, and then they… then they said that I was suing them, and like.
20:11:51 Well, I didn't… I just wanted you to fix something.
20:11:54 And then this consultant that we had on, he's the author of 22 cents an hour.
20:12:00 He came on and he said. You'll never get… Filing a complaint is a lawsuit, and like, they didn't say that. He's like, no, they're not gonna say that.
20:12:10 But if you file a complaint, it's a lawsuit. So, the DLC gave me the resources to find people.
20:12:17 That I could find people, and I could find more people.
20:12:20 that we're willing to at least give me some legal advice.
20:12:23 And then I kind of just had to… Even though it's winning the case, I didn't have.
20:12:29 $530,000 to go to court. So you file an EEOC complaint.
20:12:35 They turn into a lawsuit, and then you owe them.
20:12:39 you know, you have to pay to go to court, and they are… the employer has budget for that.
20:12:45 And they know that you don't, so they just wait for you to burn out, and that's what happened to me.
20:12:50 But I didn't burn out. emotionally, because I have the DLC.
20:12:55 Because every month I can get on and talk to Nico, and I'm not crying anymore.
20:12:59 I'm still angry, but now I have control of my emotions, and I'm doing something about it.
20:13:05 You know what I'm doing? I'm telling my story. I'm preserving this cultural knowledge.
20:13:10 What?
20:13:14 I just did it. I just got my anger out in a narrative that people can listen to.
20:13:20 And I'm hoping that people behind me that come into the ZLC, they'll watch this recording.
20:13:25 And they'll feel a feeling of unity with what I've gone through and they'll make better decisions than I did.
20:13:34 You bring up a good point, which is that the.
20:13:39 power of narrative, especially within the disability community and the DLC.
20:13:44 cannot be overstated because. so much of community belonging can come from seeing another person.
20:13:51 And thinking, I identify with them, or they're experiencing something that I'm also experiencing.
20:13:59 But… my case with the City of Charlottesville was about my autism diagnosis.
20:14:05 And they forced me to spend money not just on court fees and legal fees.
20:14:09 They forced me to have an autism diagnosis done.
20:14:13 Just because I complained and said, look, this isn't going to work for my neurology.
20:14:18 Like, well, prove to us that you have a neurological problem.
20:14:23 So I did. They didn't expect me to get my paperwork in time, and then I got my paper… I filed everything on time. I had everything they… everything… every deposition. They… I really kept up with them.
20:14:33 But I don't have half a million dollars. So they were just… literally, I feel like they were laughing the whole time.
20:14:41 They were sweating, too, because they didn't want to lose a federal case.
20:14:45 But right now, I know, like, to preserve this cultural knowledge, if you think you have autism.
20:14:51 Or if you identify as autistic. If you ask me if you're going to disclose it to employer.
20:14:58 You know what my answer is? You're at the wrong employer.
20:15:02 If you've gotten a job without disclosing. your identity, then you're working at a place where you have to mask all day.
20:15:09 You're at the wrong job in the first place.
20:15:11 And there's no point in changing the workplace environment.
20:15:15 So I have… I have all kinds of things that I've learned from it.
20:15:18 that I'll never do again. What I want is a place to leave that for other people so they can pick it up and look at it and go.
20:15:24 Oh, yeah, I got the wrong job. I need to work in an inclusive space for all types of marginalization.
20:15:32 So I don't have to feel shame for not being normal on all those different.
20:15:36 I have so many ways that I'm not normal.
20:15:40 I literally have to design… this is what… I learned is I have to design a world built for my needs. I can't… I literally cannot expect an employer to make a world designed for my needs.
20:15:52 And the DLC is giving me the tools. To build that world professionally.
20:15:57 When I joined the DLC, I didn't even know how to get on Zoom.
20:16:02 I'm a skateboarder. And I'm a Paralympic snowboarder.
20:16:05 And I like being outside, I don't like being on tech. And then the city shut down.
20:16:11 My skateboarding program for other reasons, and then I made the complaint, and now I don't have a… now I'm sitting in a chair in front of a.
20:16:18 computer screen all day. I was… I was hoping to just have a simple job with a simple life, but now I'm being put into a place.
20:16:27 Or I'm doing podcasts and Zoom meetings, and StreamYard, all these things that came out of being on the DLC.
20:16:34 So I was in the DLC for a couple years, and then a friend said, hey.
20:16:39 You should go talk to my other friend, his wife's dying of MS, and your wife died of Stiff Person syndrome.
20:16:44 And you know what he's going through, and then that turned into a podcast. So now we have NeuroDope.
20:16:50 That's all because I was doing monthly meetings with Nico.
20:16:53 And doing office hours with Tiffany, and they literally said.
20:16:58 Just come on, you can take your phone camera on or off, it doesn't matter.
20:17:03 This is fine, just be yourself, whatever level of self you can tolerate.
20:17:09 So I built a window of tolerance for tech.
20:17:12 And for having my face on a camera. Because I'm autistic, I don't like… I don't like people in my face, let alone my own face in my face, if that makes sense.
20:17:25 Yeah, it does because the uni. You need those boundaries to feel.
20:17:30 comfortable and to feel productive.
20:17:32 Yeah, so I think of this as a training ground. It's a professional development training ground.
20:17:37 It's literally the collective of people learning to be leaders.
20:17:42 Around disability issues. And it's what I needed, because when you're disabled like I am.
20:17:50 Which I hope everyone listening knows that they're all disabled the same way, because it's not about my body or my mind.
20:17:56 It's about the society I live in. and the leadership is to figure out how to survive a toxic environment.
20:18:05 That disability isn't what I contain. I have multitudes of differences, but that's not the disability. The disability is outside of me.
20:18:13 It's… it's society. It's my culture. And in order to change culture, you have to be able to speak.
20:18:21 You have to have your voice heard, and the DLC is the place to practice.
20:18:26 Your voice. I practice here. I did a… I never posted this, but.
20:18:31 When we used to be more active, like a Discord chat, I wanted to… I did a… this is very autistic, by the way.
20:18:37 I took every post that I'd made in the last 12 months on the DLC, and I did a word count. So I cut and pasted everything I'd posted for 12 months on the DLC.
20:18:48 And I put it in a Word doc, and then I just did… I just did the word count.
20:18:52 And it was like… it was some… it was a novel. It was, like, 60,000 words posted by Neil Hughes on the DLC.
20:19:00 I'm ready to be in the world now. Like, it literally birthed me.
20:19:05 It's a safe place to express my frustrations. My fears, my ugly public crying, which I do regularly, I'm crying on public.
20:19:13 calls every day, but every time I just kind of laugh because it's Nico.
20:19:19 Who's rooting for me, and I'm gonna have to do… I have emotional overwhelm. I cannot control.
20:19:24 that part of my autism, so now I'm like, it.
20:19:27 Do you want to talk to me about this stuff? I'll be crying on camera, and they're like, oh, we love that. I'm like, of course you do, because you're.
20:19:34 Disability Pornmongers. But how do we change the world?
20:19:38 By telling our stories.
20:19:44 And I also think. It's important to point out, especially in terms of.
20:19:49 Emotional regulation that. There's no wrong way.
20:19:54 to express your emotions, because. I know particularly neurodivergent people are often shamed for how.
20:20:02 They expressed or processed. their emotions, but it goes back to the idea that we live.
20:20:09 Oftentimes an inherently ableist. society, and so what they're feeling and how they're expressing it.
20:20:15 isn't necessarily wrong, it's just the. Excuse me, the way that it's perceived.
20:20:21 Yeah, I'm gonna… you're making me think of something I can do with it. When I get interviewed from a.
20:20:27 A person that's not coming from this. overwhelm that I have. I'll have them put their hand on a hot plate.
20:20:34 You know, like, one of those… like, a buffet warmer, you just have, like, a low flame.
20:20:41 Hmm…
20:20:41 And then I'll say, just ask me all your questions, but leave your hand on that open flame. Just ask me all your questions, and don't cry.
20:20:48 And don't scream out, and you just ask me the questions, and you cannot move your hands.
20:20:55 Exactly.
20:20:55 Because I'm… because this is protecting me. from your lights, and you want me to take it off, and I refuse to now, I leave my hat on.
20:21:03 I don't wear sunglasses, because that's not approved of, but I have a hat on.
20:21:08 It usually blocks the light enough. If it doesn't, I bring it down.
20:21:13 Because I get a headache back here, and then if I don't honor the light problem.
20:21:17 And I get this tightness here, and then in my diaphragm, and before I know it, I'm taking shallow breaths, and then I'm acting like there's something wrong.
20:21:25 Because there is something wrong. A TV studio is not designed for autistic eyes. I have 10, 20 vision, so I've always had, like.
20:21:33 Read the lines, I'm like, which one? And I read the whole chart.
20:21:38 That's my brain. It's not… There's nothing wrong with that.
20:21:42 All they're looking for is to sell eyeglasses, so no one ever wrote down that I had extra vision, they never wrote down that I had light sensitivity.
20:21:50 That's just autism, it's not… It's not an issue until they can make money on it. That's the world we live in.
20:21:56 So my cultural knowledge lessons came out of the DLC.
20:22:01 A lot of what I just repeated is stuff that I've learned here.
20:22:09 And I… I also think it's worth. Worth noting that.
20:22:14 The people who shame you or try to guilt you about your.
20:22:20 The accommodations they require, or your needs. That's a sign that you shouldn't necessarily be in those networks or those spaces.
20:22:28 Yes.
20:22:28 And there's nothing… there's nothing wrong or selfish about wanting to protect yourself.
20:22:34 And the problem we have with employment and Social Security subcommittee at the National Council of Independent Living.
20:22:42 is Neil Jacobson died. That's the problem we have. Neil Jacobson died.
20:22:48 And then they shut down that whole committee for Social Security and employment for disabled people.
20:22:55 There's a strange thing happening, we're a grassroots organizations are centralizing.
20:23:02 They're… their business structure. And they're turning into NGOs, and they're collecting funds.
20:23:08 And they're not serving the constituents. So I literally got here through serving in a council on employment.
20:23:19 and Social Security benefits, and how to get people back to work with disabilities.
20:23:24 And that's gone. So if I hadn't jumped from the DLC, I literally jumped from nickel.
20:23:30 to the DLC, because it met my needs. And now, all that stuff I thought was going to be helpful is gone anyway.
20:23:39 Judy Herman… Uh, Neil Jacobson, these are people that have.
20:23:45 They literally plowed away… they are the. the DLC of the 70s, and if you watch Koop Kamp.
20:23:50 You'll see Neil's wife on there. And if we don't understand our cultural knowledge, if we have to use Netflix cripCamp.
20:23:59 To understand what we're doing on a daily basis, that's 30 years old.
20:24:04 And that's not effective. the DLC is real-time.
20:24:08 support for your real-time problems in 2025.
20:24:15 And as important as it is. To remember and perpetuate our history, it's.
20:24:20 It's also equally as crucial to prepare. for tomorrow and the challenges we're facing in the moment.
20:24:27 Yeah, I need to… I want the history lesson from yesterday, not 1970s. I want to know what I did yesterday that was not going to work.
20:24:38 Exactly, because the only way that we can improve our tactics is to.
20:24:42 get feedback on them in real time.
20:24:45 Yes, exactly.
20:24:50 Would you say that… I know now you're… Now you're in a place where you.
20:24:54 where you're off, correct me if I'm wrong, but you're off.
20:24:58 Social Security are off benefits for the first time?
20:25:02 Well, here's the… technically… I would like to be off benefits, but another thing that Social Security does.
20:25:10 is they want a reporting of your income for 12 months when you're self-employed.
20:25:16 So I can't even report that I've… I exceeded my.
20:25:19 So I have 9 months, right, that I can earn above.
20:25:23 SGI… This is all technical. If you're not in Social Security, you might not have ever heard this.
20:25:29 But I have to follow the rules, so I have to exceed my limits for 9 months.
20:25:34 Then I have to file my taxes. Then I have to file a report with the SSDI, then they have to approve the termination of benefits.
20:25:42 And then I have to pay back the months that they've paid me the $1,000 they're giving me.
20:25:49 So, yeah, I would love to be off benefits, but even that process takes almost a year. And I have to save the money and not spend it, so they don't sue me for overpayment, and I've been sued 2 times in the last 25 years.
20:26:03 And each time they sue me, they're wrong. And then they put the money in my account.
20:26:09 And then, I have 60 days to spend it down, because otherwise I'll lose my Medicaid benefits.
20:26:15 It's a full-time job to be federally disabled, and when I went to get a full-time job at a city.
20:26:20 There was no place for me there. That's what I've learned in the last 25 years.
20:26:29 People often question why people with disabilities. don't work, and they don't understand, it's because.
20:26:35 So much of the systems and so much of.
20:26:38 Social Security, and so many benefits are just stacked against us.
20:26:44 I do work. I work to stay in the system. It's literally a full-time job.
20:26:49 With the 6-month medical… Financial reviews.
20:26:53 People criticize the disabled. And I just say to them, I would like to look at your bank statement right now, please.
20:27:00 I think you're lying about how much money you've made.
20:27:04 And I'm going to take your health insurance in the next.
20:27:07 14 days if you don't turn over those records.
20:27:11 You've changed your password, and now I can't get into your bank account.
20:27:15 And they're like, what are you talking about?
20:27:20 I'm like, well, then you don't understand Medicaid, you don't understand being on Medicare, you don't understand medical reviews and the financial reviews.
20:27:28 And how did I get the money in the bank after I won the lawsuit?
20:27:32 I didn't get the money in the bank, they dropped it in there without my permission, because they have access to my banking.
20:27:39 I'm not a U.S. Citizen, I'm federally disabled. They're like, what are you talking about? I'm like, you're complaining about citizens, I'm not a citizen. I'm a ward of the state.
20:27:49 And I'm doing everything I can to stop being awarded the state.
20:27:55 And it's for measly… A pittance of money.
20:27:59 And then, if you want your Medicaid. And you're on ticket to work, and you're working a little bit, they take half of your money.
20:28:08 So not only do I want access to your bank account, and not only do I think you're lying about your income.
20:28:13 Once I figure out how much money you have made, you'll owe me half of that.
20:28:17 Or you will lose your health insurance. Because 20%… of Medicare is covered by Medicaid, and when you're on chemo drugs.
20:28:26 That's $100,000 a month. So if I earn $750, which is underneath the levels.
20:28:33 And they take the whatever. But it's 75375?
20:28:40 That's better than losing my house, that's… My bills for chemo drugs when my wife was dying.
20:28:47 Yeah, that's the world I live in. I live in an unfair world.
20:28:51 And systems designed to crush me, and then I have people.
20:28:55 at the county fair with t-shirts that say, Working Hard.
20:28:59 for the hardly working. And when I park at Lowe's.
20:29:04 I use a handicapped spot. And now the lows near me has moved half of my handicut spots to places that aren't accessible.
20:29:13 For veteran spaces that are not… Anything to do with other than the people who run Lowe's wanting to.
20:29:22 promote their politics. So, if you park in the blue panel.
20:29:27 handicap spot. It says. You'll be 50,000… Or 20,000 to $100,000 fine for parking illegally in the blue spot.
20:29:38 But then there's 3 spots for veterans. And it says, parking only.
20:29:43 And there's no sign that says that you can be charged a fee, so I now purposely park in the veteran spots.
20:29:53 And people don't understand, those are small acts of.
20:29:57 Resistance, they get us through every day.
20:29:59 And I don't… I don't leave my car there, I park there to watch people's reactions, because they're looking at a handicap.
20:30:06 They're looking at the car to see where I served.
20:30:10 So they can come up to me and ask me for my disability rating.
20:30:17 My son is a Navy. Veteran with 100% disability rating, and people literally high-five him in Lowe's.
20:30:26 Because that's, like, the gold ring. Oh, man, 100%, you, like, have the golden ticket to the VA.
20:30:32 And you're making your pay. And you can go get a job.
20:30:36 And still make your pay… We have veterans on disability.
20:30:42 that are not touched at all by… at all by any of these unjust laws, because they serve their country.
20:30:51 There's two types of disability in America. And one of them is not a disability, it's called Veterans Benefits.
20:31:00 So, we use the word in ways that aren't appropriate. Those are the things that I would like to change in my lifetime.
20:31:08 A real word for the word disability. for what it is that you're struggling with.
20:31:13 And the only people that can use the word disability.
20:31:17 Right? If we want to gatekeep something. Sure, we can do that, or we can notice that.
20:31:25 It's a global problem, and even in the military.
20:31:29 What they're doing is inefficient, and it's not good for people.
20:31:33 I just have so much to talk about. about these topics, but the narrative telling these stories is what's important.
20:31:42 And I hope that you get a lot of people volunteering to speak up about what they've experienced.
20:31:47 I have 6… I have 6 different versions of disability in play right now in my life.
20:31:55 None of them match, none of them line up, and… We can go into that, or we don't have to.
20:32:01 But if we're not talking about these honest problems today.
20:32:05 So that tomorrow is better. then we're not learning from our history.
20:32:12 You can, you can speak about them if you want. I would leave disclosure up to you.
20:32:17 No, I'm just saying I don't know what… what you would like as a… as an interviewer, if that's the kind of information you want.
20:32:24 Oh, sure, you can talk about different aspects, because I also.
20:32:28 I think it highlights that just disability can be both physical and neurological, because.
20:32:33 Obviously, you're an example of that.
20:32:35 So I have that… I have differences that I don't call my disabilities. What I'm talking about with disabilities is the stuff outside of my body.
20:32:43 And my mind, my differences of nervous system. My mind is different, and my body is different. I don't consider that a disability.
20:32:52 What I'm talking about is my health insurance. Legal definition is different.
20:33:00 Then, my whole life policy with John Hancock, which is a different definition of disability.
20:33:05 Which is also different for the state level. of the Medicaid benefit, which I'm approved for, but I'm not taking.
20:33:13 And then the Social Security one. And then there's the workers' comp version.
20:33:19 And then there's the Voc Rehab version. And all they want me to do is focus on my differences.
20:33:25 And so, therefore, I don't have the tools to deal with the 6 different legal definitions of how I am not a valuable member of society.
20:33:33 I am being judged on 6 different levels. Different definitions for different administrative reasons.
20:33:42 And society wants to make it about my nervous system.
20:33:45 And how it's both physically and mentally different than everyone else.
20:33:49 So, I think… What disability should say is that your differences, which aren't disabilities, and how they get devalued by your culture.
20:34:01 That's how I think of disability. It's the devaluing of my differences.
20:34:06 So that they don't have to accommodate them because they feel like that will cost them too much. It's administrative.
20:34:12 Definitions. And if we don't have a working definition of disability, then what I'm talking about doesn't make sense. But one of the first things I learned.
20:34:22 Being in the DLC was the… Is it Talia A. Lewis, her definition of disability.
20:34:29 And then I started thinking about how many ways am I being disabled?
20:34:34 Well, I'm being disabled by my insurance. And my life insurance and Medicaid, all of these things are telling me that my differences are a problem.
20:34:44 I don't experience my body as a problem. The world experiences my body as a problem.
20:34:50 I just experienced what I experience.
20:34:56 Exactly, and I can say, as someone… has a lot of personal care needs. I know that.
20:35:03 veering off too much, I know that. That's a consistent theme of my life, and I know a lot of.
20:35:09 pupils' lives is, you're. Your basic needs acquire this weird sociocultural currency and it's like.
20:35:17 Suddenly, you're judged by how. You're asking to shower, how often are you asking?
20:35:22 For meals, how often are you asking to. use the bathroom and all of those incidental.
20:35:30 sick needs are suddenly commodified and assigned and. moral value, and it's certainly.
20:35:36 It certainly makes you question your self-worth because. biological need that you have.
20:35:43 has to go through a kaleidoscope of worthiness, but because the eye.
20:35:48 is usually non-disabled society. You're always gonna come out lacking.
20:35:53 Yeah, and my answer to them is as many as you get.
20:35:58 as many as you need. Why is my needs different than yours? We're both humans.
20:36:03 Exactly. Um. So, like, for me personally, with my own.
20:36:10 journey, and I don't… obviously, we have different experiences, but I don't know if you've experienced a certain degree of.
20:36:16 this as well, it's just like. constantly being.
20:36:20 put on the defensive and having to argue. For basic human needs and rights is just.
20:36:27 It's one of the most psychologically taxing things that you'll ever have to go through, and I.
20:36:34 Luckily. them! I don't think non-disabled.
20:36:38 People have a frame of reference for that, but it's unfortunately an empathy that can only.
20:36:44 It can only be found through suffering a lot of the time.
20:36:46 Well, that goes in the… when I… when people want to… politics. I've been at a birthday party.
20:36:53 Where I was publicly shamed for being disabled. And I literally said, I would like to look at your bank account.
20:37:01 And they're… I literally did that at a birthday party. I need to see your bank account. I don't believe that you've made.
20:37:06 as much money as you've said you've made, and I believe that you owe me money.
20:37:12 As a disabled person, I didn't get the healthcare I needed this month, because I think you were tax evading.
20:37:17 And I'd like to check your bank account. If you can check into what I need medically, I can check into what you did with your taxes, and I think as a business owner, you've evaded your taxes.
20:37:28 And I'd like to do a citizen's arrest. I didn't go that far, but that's where I was headed.
20:37:34 The fault that I have… As a citizen of America, is that I'm not a citizen of America. I'm federally disabled.
20:37:41 And these people are assuming that I play by the same rules.
20:37:45 And I have the same privileges, and that I'm gaming a system.
20:37:49 at their expense.
20:37:55 There's this notion that peop-. People with disabilities are.
20:38:00 freeloaders and social leeches or that, we just. sit around eating bonbons in our pajamas all day, cashing social… Security checks and.
20:38:10 Disability, I feel like what. I'm disabled society doesn't understand is.
20:38:16 Disability isn't… isn't a. I could have been… a coping mechanism, or like a cheat code to get through life, it's probably… The biggest stumbling block to a normal existence that you will ever have.
20:38:32 Yes. Neil Neil Jacobson ran a bank. He was a branch president.
20:38:39 Or a bank. He had people below him, he managed them just fine.
20:38:45 He understood business in a way that. Regular people didn't?
20:38:50 And then he died, and they closed down. committee to make a world.
20:38:55 Or that kind of opportunity available for all disabled people.
20:38:59 Unfortunately, I jumped into the DLC before that happened.
20:39:04 Within a year of joining the DLC. All my other activities would have been out… would have been washed up, and I'd already moved on from that.
20:39:13 Watching what's going on in the disability justice. Versus disability rights.
20:39:19 the transition, and now this post. just as… we're not in social justice world anymore. We've moved out of.
20:39:26 All of these things that we thought we were going to move into this bright future with DEI, and disability was never part of DEI.
20:39:35 It was never intended to actually uplift anyone that was disabled.
20:39:40 So, there's a bright future for disability. If we can get our stories out there.
20:39:49 And really, the importance of representation and the. importance of that visibility cannot be.
20:39:56 highlighted enough.
20:39:59 Yes, I like the disability visit… the disability visibility project, I like the diversity project.
20:40:04 I like Sin's invalid, I like NeuroSTEM. I like… neuroplastic, these are places that are telling the stories.
20:40:13 And doing the research, and giving us tools to survive a world.
20:40:18 Not designed for any of us.
20:40:23 And there's also power in that resistance that even in.
20:40:28 The current climate where hopelessness and apathy. become an invalid emotions or responses for people.
20:40:36 People would have, there's always. pockets and corners of resistance, if you're willing.
20:40:41 to look, and I feel like that really reinforces the idea that hope.
20:40:46 Springs eternal for us.
20:40:49 Absolutely.
20:40:52 Um, I, I know that. to invite, I don't know, Sam, if you would like to join the conversation or not, obviously.
20:41:03 Whatever your comfort level is, but… I'd be curious to get your perspective, or your interpretation of what is… Disability means to you as well, or any questions that you might have for Neil.
20:41:19 Uh, you know, there was a point in the conversation a little earlier.
20:41:24 Um, when, Neil, when you were talking about… it's not really… so this isn't really a question, but it's more of a… of validations of sorts.
20:41:33 Um, there was a point, Neil, when you were talking about HR, um, or, like, your EOC complaint.
20:41:40 And that reminded me of, uh. Um, something that I want to share with the community, which is, um… I went through a situation with one of my last jobs, um… And, um, I had to leave because it was a toxic work environment.
20:41:59 And one of my biggest learning experiences from that was learning the HR.
20:42:06 Um… is not there to protect. me as the employee, HR is there to protect the company.
20:42:13 Um, and that was very enlightening and eye-opening to me.
20:42:14 Yes. Yes.
20:42:18 Um, and it made me realize that, um… Like… capitalism and, um… corporate America are not designed for people like us.
20:42:32 We don't belong there.
20:42:34 And I wanna… I'm gonna beat the drum all day long that we're not in capitalist.
20:42:40 society anymore. We are in a post-capitalist. world.
20:42:46 the systems that work to create the capitalist model are broken.
20:42:51 And that's… that's what we're experiencing, is the disruption.
20:42:51 So how… sorry.
20:42:55 a deterioration of the capital markets.
20:42:57 I totally agree with you. It's, like, it's… this is… What we're going through now is the result of unfettered abuse of capitalism. I'm totally with you. But I'm curious, the distinction between capitalism and post-capitalism, what can you…
20:43:11 clarify that?
20:43:13 Yes, it's an up… it's an upswelling of value in the markets without actual value.
20:43:20 But we have… we have private equity as taking money out of the markets.
20:43:19 Mmm, okay, that makes sense.
20:43:24 and privatizing previously public companies because they have value.
20:43:30 So when the billionaires are taking their companies through private equity funds.
20:43:30 Mmm…
20:43:35 When they're taking their valuable assets out of the market and leaving the fluff.
20:43:41 So if all of our… and this isn't for me, I don't have a retirement account, but if all of our retirement accounts are based on fluff.
20:43:48 While the billionaires are privatizing their assets. That's a post-capitalistic market.
20:43:55 This is a new… we are literally in a war economy for the last 6 years.
20:43:54 Got it, okay, thank you.
20:43:59 And this is a new economy. With the way asset distribution works.
20:44:05 And they're gaming the market by privatizing what's actually making money they take out of the public markets.
20:44:11 So these stock indexes don't mean anything anymore.
20:44:18 It's… this is… financially… financially, if you're in the market right now.
20:44:18 You can't see me. I'm shaking.
20:44:22 and you're not… you don't own a private company. If you don't have private equity.
20:44:27 in private companies, and you're using public. equity to fund your retirement.
20:44:32 This is a dangerous time for you to be in, because we've seen these markets.
20:44:36 As we built the early teens, the 19s. And this is, um… what's his name?
20:44:43 Kennedy… They made him the first SEC, the first SEC chairman, because he was the fox.
20:44:52 So, where we got Joseph and… JFK Jr, and all of these Kennedys that came out of a wealth buildup.
20:45:00 Before there was a security and exchange commission. And the best way to avoid the Security Exchange Commission is to take your publicly funded.
20:45:09 company, private. And leave what's in the market as fluff. So these are not.
20:45:16 disability topics, but the way this applies. Is that when you run out of capital, then you start cutting.
20:45:24 social initiatives, like… Disability benefits and food stamps, and Medicare.
20:45:31 So, when they put Kennedy as the SEC, they interviewed him, and they said, why did they pick you? A criminal.
20:45:38 to be in charge of protecting the market. He says.
20:45:42 If you want to protect the chickens, you gotta use the fox.
20:45:47 You gotta fight foxes with foxes. So we don't have that anymore.
20:45:53 We don't have that, and for the chickens. Well, then we're in trouble.
20:45:53 Yeah.
20:45:59 So I like going to the DLC, because I feel like it… I'll never be a fox, but now I have a good crossbow.
20:46:06 I like that. Thank you for hearing my tangent.
20:46:11 Yeah, of course.
20:46:16 And I feel like even if you're among. chickens, even in moments where you feel like you are, there's strength in numbers.
20:46:24 Yeah, I'm a chicken with a crossbow, and I'm building a crossbow factory. Do you guys want to work there?
20:46:28 Hell yes.
20:46:30 Alright, yeah!
20:46:32 So I'm… I'm actually doing social media, so I just manage other artists and their media accounts.
20:46:40 It's not… it's really not glamorous how I'm leaving disability, because.
20:46:44 I never wanted to be in the influencer world.
20:46:47 But literally, the DLC taught me the power of storytelling.
20:46:51 And how… and I already have a degree in writing, so I'm like, yeah, I can do that.
20:46:55 So I picked something that I would never do so that I can be out of a thing that was literally collapsing around me. I got my first paycheck in June.
20:47:05 As an independent contractor, I'm hoping to get W-2 wages.
20:47:09 January 1st, I don't care when that happens, I just know that it's happening, so… I'll be an employee.
20:47:16 And I'm an employee that is on camera talking about disability, so I'm getting paid.
20:47:21 To make the world a better place, and that.
20:47:24 That's not what I wanted to do. But it was way better than the book Rehab was trying to get me into.
20:47:33 There you go, and that dovetail's back. into the power and potency of sharing our stories as people with disabilities as well.
20:47:41 Yeah, I want to make social media great again, so…
20:47:50 Well, there's a lot of noise on social media, so I feel like.
20:47:55 anybody doing anything for good deserves to be uplifted.
20:47:59 Well, that's actually… so the initiative I'm part of is an algorithm initiative to watch.
20:48:05 Versus clicks. So right now, we have likes and follows and followers.
20:48:10 But what about how long people stay on a post? What about how long they stay on a YouTube video?
20:48:15 Hmm…
20:48:23 Yeah.
20:48:18 So rather than number of views. The length of the views, and it's… and it's about getting… Your 60 followers that are what bases the algorithm to be them actually.
20:48:31 in community with you. I'm not part of a disability community.
20:48:35 When we say that it's the largest minority, the disability community, I'm like, that's a statistic.
20:48:42 that there's… yes, 25% of Americans are disabled. Half of them, no. A quarter of them? No, not even a… little sliver of those people.
20:48:53 have anything to do with what I need out of a community.
20:48:57 I don't believe in a pan… disability community that includes 25% of Americans.
20:49:03 Because I know the politics of most of them.
20:49:06 are conservative. When we do a disservice, in my opinion, we do a disservice when we say we're the largest community.
20:49:15 Of marginalized people, because most of the people that are disabled in America are ableist.
20:49:21 And they're collecting benefits, and they're reporting their income to the government while they also do side projects that they're not reporting.
20:49:29 They're just like, yeah, I just got a check, and then over here I do this, and it's all under the table. I've never done anything under the table.
20:49:36 I literally want to leave disability. and replace that benefit with something that's financially better than what the government was offering me.
20:49:45 That's… that's a very small number of people. If we take 25% of America.
20:49:51 And you put me in the community of the people that really want to get to work.
20:49:54 and make their lives better, and also make the world better. I can tell you how many people that is.
20:50:01 For me, my community is you guys on this call.
20:50:04 I don't consider communities people that won't pay attention to me.
20:50:08 So I'm in a community of 3 Americans. And there's 25% of us that are disabled. I think we should make that number bigger. I think we should preserve this cultural knowledge.
20:50:18 So we can actually build a disability community.
20:50:23 And that goes back to the power of our futurity and.
20:50:28 the importance of hope in terms of looking towards the next generation and what.
20:50:34 What we can uplift them and. Set them up to help them achieve.
20:50:38 Right. Yeah.
20:50:43 I think whatever DEI. meant or means has to be reinvented.
20:50:50 In a way, like, I think we need to be… I'm starting to think anyway.
20:50:57 We need to be in a post-DEI world. Um, in terms of, like… Not, but I'm anti-DEI. I just think that it's been… One, it's been soured by politics, and two, it was always innately political. I learned fairly recently that.
20:51:15 Um… DEI was intentionally… or disability was intentionally left out of DEI.
20:51:23 Um, because it allowed… the powers that be to continue to take advantage of disabled people.
20:51:30 Yes.
20:51:32 So, I think that whatever, like, what we… The system needs to change, as kind of cliche as that.
20:51:40 can sound, it's… it's true.
20:51:39 Yes. Yes. So, for me, the idea would be, like, what happened with Toyota Corp in the 80s.
20:51:48 I don't know if I know that, no. I don't know if…
20:51:49 Yeah, so Oppenheimer… Oppenheimer made the hydrogen bomb. and Eisenhower or somebody, I forgot who dropped it, on Hiroshima Nagasaki.
20:51:59 Mm-hmm, that I remember.
20:52:01 So, what happened to Japan is they lost their hierarchy. They lost the… the emperor's still there, but he has no power.
20:52:07 They have no military, the only weapon they have is economic.
20:52:12 Strength and Toyota Corp. This is the corp… this is the Emperor's kingdom, right? This triangle. So the emperor's at the top.
20:52:22 Toyota Corp just turned it upside down, and they made.
20:52:21 Yeah.
20:52:25 The line worker at the top. I can't really do it with my fingers, but… So the points down here, and then the line worker, the people building cars, they were the decision makers.
20:52:36 And then the people at the very tip of the thing, they supported everyone with finances.
20:52:41 So the line workers had to see a problem.
20:52:44 analyze it, say how much it would cost to fix.
20:52:47 And the return on investment, and it would go to their middle management, and then it would go to the VPs, and it'd go to the chairman.
20:52:54 And the board, and then it would be a final vote by the president. If it even went that far.
20:52:59 You know what that sounds like? socialism.
20:53:02 It wasn't. It's called Lean Manufacturing.
20:53:04 Okay. I was being a little snarky, but…
20:53:06 No, that's the problem, is we… so, DEI was a political solution for an… if you use a political hammer for an economic problem.
20:53:12 I…
20:53:15 you're gonna never get to the economic solution. So if you take away someone's political structure.
20:53:21 And all they have is economic weapons. Toyota Corp figures out really quickly.
20:53:20 Mm-hmm.
20:53:26 If we don't figure this out, where's the power imbalance? It's in giving everyone.
20:53:32 a purpose in Toyota Corp. It's called lead manufacturing. I'm trained in that, so I like to talk about it.
20:53:34 Hmm… Okay. Got it, okay.
20:53:39 We have, in this world, we have autonomy on one side, and we have authoritarian on the other, so we have.
20:53:45 Extreme authoritarianism, and we have extreme autonomy. Those are the ends of the spectrum, but in the middle.
20:53:52 You have examples of people that are balancing both the authority.
20:53:55 and the autonomy of everyone in the group. So it's Healthy Workplace Environments, and Temple Grandin says.
20:53:58 Mm-hmm.
20:54:02 What's good for the cow? is good for the slaughter industry.
20:54:06 Yep.
20:54:08 And I'm saying the same thing. What's good for… Disabled people is good for… Everybody. So the curb cutter effect is a way to talk about that. Tiffany, you does a lot of.
20:54:21 talking about that, and what we're not talking about.
20:54:25 uplifting one segment. We're not talking about platforming one segment, we're saying, let's make.
20:54:31 The basic needs met of everyone. Because it'll make everyone… benefit from that.
20:54:34 Absolutely. Absolutely.
20:54:38 So that's… that's been proven in business. And those are stories that we can start talking about.
20:54:46 We can start giving a curb cutter effect. Not from a political vantage, but from a profit-based vantage, and that's how Temple Grand.
20:54:55 Used her disabled station in life to uplift an entire industry, and it lifted her out of disability.
20:55:03 into world fame. And she's sold a lot of books, and she's had a full-time job at a university, and she was raised by well-educated parents until one of them left.
20:55:15 So, like I said, the definition of disability. Who's putting a label on Temple Grandin?
20:55:21 Nobody, because she's financially solvent. Financial solvency solves disability.
20:55:30 Hmm.
20:55:32 And that's not a capitalist thing, that's saying, if we make space for everyone.
20:55:37 We end disability. It's not a political issue. It's a resource issue.
20:55:42 We're not resourcing people properly, just like they weren't resourcing the animals.
20:55:47 in the slaughterhouse. I would encourage anyone that's trying to change the world.
20:55:51 to watch Claire Danes as she acts. the part of Temple Grandin in the movie Temple Grandin.
20:55:59 That's where we're headed. We're headed to survival mode.
20:56:02 Like, Toyota was faced… After World War II, and it took them… When the bomb dropped in the 40s, end of the 40s, so… They didn't… they didn't get their footing for almost 25 years.
20:56:18 And what disabled people are good at, they're good at surviving.
20:56:21 Absolutely.
20:56:22 So let's start talking about that. Not to prove that we need to be uplifted.
20:56:27 To prove that the people at the table who are making decisions are incompetent.
20:56:32 It's… yeah, it's to prove that we're leaders.
20:56:34 Yes, the derivability… Leadership Collective, yes.
20:56:40 Absolutely, yeah.
20:56:44 to end on as we approach the top of the hour.
20:56:46 here, but I just wanted to say thank. Thank you so much, Neil, for sharing your experience, and thank.
20:56:53 Sam, for providing your feedback as well. We appreciate everyone.
20:56:58 Who's watching this, and if anyone has. any questions?
20:57:04 Some combination of us will all always be available as resources to reach out to.
20:57:14 Thanks so much, Neo, I'm gonna stop the recording now!
20:57:17 Thank you, thank you.
20:57:18 Thanks, everyone.
20:57:20 It was a great session.
20:57:23 Yeah, I like… I actually like podcasting, so… I think, Sam, you should go.